RE: BDB recovery after power outage

[Tony Earnshaw <tonni@billy.demon.nl>]

tir, 22.04.2003 kl. 01.02 skrev Luke A. Kanies:

> > I'd maintain that there's doco enough. It needs reading and it needs the
> > mind of a Unix sysadmin, not an MCSA.
> 
> Why this casting of aspersion?  I don't understand.  Why do you assume
> that, because we don't have your knowledge or haven't researched in the
> same places you have, we are morons?

I didn't set out to insult anyone, least of all you.

I don't regard any sysadmin as a moron, unless he proves it first. My
point was, that Microsoft people are given nice, tidy books to learn
their trade from and only have to learn the contents to pass multiple
choice exams. They aren't expected to know anything else.

> That's twice now that someone has
> assumed that specific details show general trends:  "You didn't read all
> of the BDB documentation before implementing OpenLDAP, therefore you are
> an idiot and deserve what you get."

Not so; it's just that the BDB docs, together with this list and
practice, should give all necessary info about BDB, IMHO. Even without
one being a systems programmer.

> Why not instead assume that we read everything we thought was necessary
> (because it is incredibly obvious that not all documentation is necessary,
> and one of the skills of being a sysadmin is knowing when to stop
> collecting information), but made a mistake?

It all takes an enormous amount of time and practice to learn.

> I personally was confronted with either getting a linux box up and running
> a virtual email server or suffer through windows.  I figured I could get
> postfix, courier, and OpenLDAP running pretty quickly, and I was basically
> correct.  Before everything was up to my standards, the people who owned
> the machine started moving clients to it.  Then we had a power failure.

The less said, the better :-/

> > Do hope that this isn't taken as a personal attack, it's not meant as
> > such. Just that nobody ever taught me Unix, I learned it through my own
> > curiosity. Same as Openldap.
> 
> It is meant as a personal attack, despite your statements to the contrary.
> You are stating that we should have all the knowledge you do, and if we
> lack that knowledge, it's our own damn fault.

Of course not. I'm trying to point out that one can't learn all this
stuff in one day - that's all. Plus that there is more than enough
documentation available in practice.

> I know a lot about some
> stuff, not a lot about others.

Same here, same with most people.

> Everything I know, I taught myself.  I'm
> just getting started with OpenLDAP, therefore I don't know much about it.
> How the hell am I supposed to learn about it without implementing it, and
> making mistakes?  Then, I get stumped, ask for help, and get insulted?
> Nice.

I don't think anyone's trying to insult you, simply trying to point
things out.

> Please don't play like you've never failed to do all possible research
> before asking for help; everyone has done that.

Certainly I have, but not often. I think your greatest problem is the
time factor.

> We're not even getting the standard RTFM from you guys, we're getting
> 'RTFM you worthless moron'.

Nobody's called you a moron. People on this list pointed (and still
point :) out where I personally go wrong, without me getting insulted.

> As to teaching, I was in the Education workshop at LISA in 2002, and from
> what I remember, there are only about 4 programs in the country that can
> teach you to be a Unix sysadmin.  Mentoring exists, but I'd say you would
> not be out of line if you assumed that > 90% of Unix sysadmins are
> self-taught.

I've been on week-long proprietary Unix courses, one after the other.
Not one of them taught me anything worthwhile. Doing it, reading and
finding out for myself taught me. But it all costs a tremendous amount
of time. Openldap is no exception and to make it worse, the boundaries
keep getting moved.

Best,

Tony

-- 

Tony Earnshaw

Do not come to visit me with both arms the same length.

e-post:		tonni@billy.demon.nl
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